Poe Hall: The latest updates about the NC State scandal
In October 2023, potentially cancer-causing chemicals, PCBs, were found in Poe Hall, North Carolina State University's education and psychology building. Since the closure, WRAL 5 On Your Side received 170 reports of cancer cases in people who worked or studied in the building.
Many of the people who reported illnesses to 5 On Your Side have expressed frustration with N.C. State leaders, saying the university was slow to act and not responsive to their concerns.
5 On Your Side's five-month investigation into Poe Hall has prompted change and action from N.C. State.
A week after 5 On Your Side reported that N.C. State was no longer participating in a federal health investigation, the school of education faculty passed votes of no confidence against N.C. State’s Chancellor Randy Woodson and Vice Chancellor and Provost Warwick Arden.
After 5 On Your Side's report in February, N.C. State reversed its decision and is now working with federal health investigators.
In May, the battle to get independent investigators inside Poe Hall ended. Wake Superior Judge Hoyt Tessener ruled in favor of former N.C. State graduate Darren Masier.
Dr. Masier’s attorneys petitioned the court, arguing NC State was "delaying justice" by not allowing alumni and employees, like Masier, to have their own investigators test Poe Hall. The testing conducted by the private consulting firm N.C. State hired to investigate PCB exposure in Poe Hall was insufficient, Masier's attorneys argued.
In light of the decision, North Carolina State University has 30 days to turn over documents related to Poe Hall and let the outside experts into the building.
Here's everything we know so far about the Poe Hall investigation.
What is the timeline of the Poe Hall investigation?
Let's first break down the timeline of the Poe Hall investigation.
2018
- Ahead of potential renovations, NCSU tests the exterior of Poe Hall.
- Testing reveals dangerous levels of PCBs on exterior caulking. Without rules requiring further testing, N.C. State does not test the interior of Poe Hall.
2020
- A former NCSU worker and worker, at the time, battling breast cancer says she notifies her direct superior about multiple breast cancer cases in Poe Hall. She says nothing is done.
August 2023
September 2023
- Department of Labor contacts NCSU about above complaint.
- University administrator reports difficulty reaching environmental health and safety department at university for guidance.
October 2023
November 2023
- On Nov. 16, N.C. State notifies students, staff and faculty that PCBs were found in Poe Hall and the university will temporarily close Poe Hall.
- Former and current workers tell WRAL News they reported concerns about the health and safety inside Poe Hall to the university for years before closure.
- The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) meets with N.C. State leaders to discuss the university's request for a Health Hazard Evaluation.
December 2023
- On Dec. 17, N.C. State hires Geosyntec, a private consulting firm, to conduct testing for PCBs in Poe Hall.
January 2024
- On Jan. 8, N.C. State announces classes will be rescheduled elsewhere for the spring semester.
- Attorneys representing N.C. State quietly end involvement with NIOSH, withdrawing the request for a Health Hazard Evaluation.
February 2024
- In early February, WRAL 5 On Your Side receives 40 reports of cancer cases in people who spent time at Poe Hall, including several deaths.
- 5 On Your Side reports N.C. State is no longer requesting a Health Hazard Evaluation.
- Following the reports, department of education faculty pass votes of no confidence against N.C. State’s Chancellor Randy Woodson and Vice Chancellor and Provost Warwick Arden. The move is purely symbolic but rare.
- N.C. State reverses course and re-requests a Health Hazard Evaluation.
- NCSU releases initial Geosytnec testing results: The first round of results, released on Feb. 8, found just one instance of PCBs above acceptable levels (according to the EPA) in 81 samples.
- This testing was done with the HVAC system off. Environmental health experts say its not indicative of the environment people were working in because the air system would have been on. NCSU says it will conduct more testing with the HVAC on.
March 2024
April 2024
- Following international and national coverage of 5 On Your Side's investigation into Poe Hall, more people living outside of North Carolina who worked or studied in Poe Hall learn about the chemicals and reports of cancer. Some of them report that they also have cancer.
- WRAL 5 On Your Side receives more reports of cancer, bringing the total to 170 cases.
- NCSU walks back on its promise of releasing test results by the end of April. Sources tell 5 On Your Side the results won't be released until after the end of the spring semester.
- Attorneys working on behalf of NCSU admit in court that NCSU turned on the HVAC system on April 16. They say they have not taken a building sample since turning on the HVAC.
- A petition filed in civil court on April 24 alleges N.C. State may have destroyed or removed evidence inside Poe Hall. The university prevented attorneys and their independent investigators from entering the building and taking samples, according to the petition.
May 2024
- The battle to get into Poe Hall ends.
- A Wake Superior judge rules in favor of former N.C. State graduate student Darren Masier. Masier, who is battling leukemia, petitioned the court to gain access to Poe Hall, claiming the university’s investigation of Poe Hall was not sufficient.
- Masier’s attorneys say they will use their owner experts and depose N.C. State leaders who were privy to the situation at Poe Hall.
- In light of the decision, North Carolina State University has 30 days to turn over documents related to Poe Hall and let the outside experts into the building.
Why did NC State close Poe Hall?
N.C. State announced in November 2023 that Poe Hall would close after testing in October 2023 unveiled the presence of PCBs in the building.
What are PCBs?
Polychlorinated biphenyls, or PCBs, are cancer-causing chemicals that do not break down easily and can be found in the air, water and soil.
PCBs are essentially forever chemicals. They were used in building materials because they are pressure and fire resistant. Experts say most buildings built between 1950 prior to a ban in 1979 have PCBs. Unless the PCB materials were actively removed, PCBs remain in many buildings today since the chemicals don’t degrade.
How do PCBs affect human beings?
People exposed to PCBs in the workplace may experience irritation of the nose and lungs, gastrointestinal discomfort, depression and fatigue and changes in the blood and liver, according to the state.
PCBs are considered a probable carcinogen and linked to several types of cancer.
How are PCBs detected?
PCBs are invisible and detected only through extensive air, dust and surface sampling.
Unlike asbestos, PCBs can affect a person even if they’re not disturbed – thanks to their ability to spread from walls and surfaces to the air. But not all buildings that were built with PCBs have this problem. The only way to know is to test. There’s very little existing regulation that requires PCB testing. In most cases, you only have to test if you think there may be a PCB problem.
How do you get rid of PCBs?
PCBs can only be removed through professional removal.
What did the Poe Hall test results reveal?
N.C. State's preliminary PCB testing results revealed concentrations of PCBs in Poe Hall were 38 times higher than what the EPA deems unsafe for humans. Much of the PCB contamination was found in the HVAC system at N.C. State's Poe Hall.
Five reports, based on tests done in October 2023 and November 2023, indicated varying levels of PCBs in the HVAC system and on surfaces inside Poe Hall.
After NCSU closed Poe Hall, Geosyntec Consultants took 14 air samples and 67 surface samples, searching for PCBs inside Poe Hall.
Geosyntec’s testing occurred with the HVAC system turned off at Poe Hall. They recommended turning on the HVAC system to do more air and surface wipe sampling after bulk samples are analyzed.
Experts said the tests used were not sensitive enough to gauge exactly how contaminated Poe Hall is.
"I have major problems with the method of analysis," said Dr. David Carpenter, director of the Institute for Health and the Environment at the University of Albany.
Carpenter analyzed the report and said the fact that Poe Hall's HVAC system has been off since November distorts the view of what's going on.
How many people associated with Poe Hall have cancer?
By early February, WRAL 5 On Your Side had received 40 reports of cancer in people who spent time at Poe Hall, including several deaths. By early April, 5 On Your Side received 170 total reports of cancer cases in people who worked or studied in Poe Hall.
In most cases, 5 On Your Side received new reports of cancer with each story published. Hundreds of sources told WRAL News they received no notification from NCSU about the situation at Poe Hall.
Are the number of cases a statistical anomaly?
It is up to local state and federal health departments to investigate and determine cancer clusters.
Based on 5 On Your Side’s investigation, more than a third of the reported cancer cases are breast cancer. In 2022, the rate of diagnosis of breast cancer in Poe Hall was three times higher than the rate of diagnosis in Wake County, where N.C. State is located.
What health investigations are happening regarding Poe Hall?
In January, N.C. State University stopped participating in health investigation with NIOSH, an institute within the CDC.
The news was frustrating to the many workers and students who fear they became sick because of the PCBs in Poe Hall.
"If they understood what these women have gone through, what their families have gone through, they could at least act like they care," said a current N.C. State employee who did not want to be named, for fear of job retaliation.
Following 5 On Your Side’s report, N.C. State reversed its decision and re-asked the CDC to investigate.
This came three weeks after lawyers working on behalf of the university told federal health investigators that they did "not need additional help."
Is NCSU collecting health information?
No, the university is not collecting health information despite the fact that more than 170 people associated with Poe Hall have reported cases of cancer. NCSU remains focused on testing the building environment of Poe Hall.
Many people who reported their cancers or illnesses to N.C. State told WRAL that they never heard back from the university. So they began reporting cases of cancer and serious health issues to 5 On Your Side. N.C. State confirmed with WRAL News that it's not collecting health information.
"N.C. State is not formally collecting information on health conditions..." the university said.
If you have a complaint about Poe Hall and N.C. State, please contact WRAL 5 On Your Side.
Did the PCBs in Poe Hall cause these cancer cases?
Woodson maintains he is unable to comment on specific health issues, such as cancer, until the university-sanctioned building investigation is complete. That messaging has proved frustrating for hundreds of people who spent time in Poe Hall and want more concrete health information.
Dr. Zack Moore, state epidemiologist with the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services, said it's very difficult to establish cancer clusters – particularly when you're talking about a single building versus an entire community.
What are the legal challenges in this situation?
Attorneys working on behalf of the former student, Darren Masier, argued the testing conducted by the consultants hired by N.C. State to investigate PCB exposure in Poe Hall was insufficient.
In light of the decision, N.C. State has 30 days to turn over documents related to Poe Hall and let the outside experts into the building. The evidence gathered at Poe Hall and during depositions could pave the way for future lawsuits.
Did NC State know about PCBs in Poe Hall prior to 2023?
Records show N.C. State knew of PCBs at Poe Hall since 2018.
Records released to WRAL 5 On Your Side by North Carolina State University revealed that tests showed the presence of PCBs on the exterior of Poe Hall.
According to the 2018 report from Matrix Health & Safety Consultants, LLC, caulk samples collected on the exterior of Poe Hall showed PCB levels up to 17,000 parts per million (ppm). PCBs in excess of 50 ppm are considered hazardous special waste, according to the EPA. That means the levels of PCBs found in Poe Hall in 2018 were 340% higher than EPA guidelines.
WRAL News asked N.C. State if additional interior testing was conducted in 2018 in light of the detection of PCBs in the exterior caulking.
"To our knowledge, no health concerns were expressed related to the renovation, and there was no indication from consultants doing the outdoor testing that indoor testing was needed," said Mary Cole Pike, a spokesperson for N.C. State.
Did NC State ignore employees' complaints and concerns about Poe Hall?
A former NCSU worker and worker, at the time, battling breast cancer said she notified her direct superior about multiple breast cancer cases in Poe Hall. She said nothing was done.
Faculty battling breast cancer and working in Poe Hall reported environmental concerns to the department of labor, EPA and university leaders.
How quickly did NCSU react to health concerns in Poe Hall?
In an email given exclusively to 5 On Your Side, one N.C. State administrator said he hit "dead ends" a couple of times while trying to alert the University’s Environmental Health and Safety department about potentially concerning rates of cancer. Memos from the Centers for Disease Control show a federal health investigation stalled for months as they waited for the go-ahead from N.C. State.
Emails from the EPA reveal that the agency learned about the closure of Poe Hall from WRAL News. In one email, sent weeks after Poe Hall closed, an EPA PCB expert asked two university administrators: "Is there an N.C. State contact to discuss this situation? I still have not heard anything from the university."
NCSU said it is now cooperating with the EPA and CDC.
Emails obtained through public records requests and sources show that N.C. State University delayed the ability of federal agencies and the university to address Poe Hall. Records show the EPA and an N.C. State administrator had difficulty reaching university leadership regarding Poe Hall for several weeks.
Separate memos show a federal health investigation into Poe Hall stalled for months as the Centers for Disease Control waited for the green light from N.C. State.
Emails from the EPA reveal that the agency learned about the closure of Poe Hall from WRAL News. In one email, sent weeks after Poe Hall closed, an EPA PCB expert asked two university administrators: "Is there an N.C. State contact to discuss this situation? I still have not heard anything from the university."
Records show the email was sent to Amy Orders, N.C. State’s senior director of emergency preparedness and strategic initiatives, and Robert Segura, the university’s director of environmental health and safety.
We asked Woodson about the breakdown in communication between N.C. State and the EPA.
"I’m not going to answer that," Woodson said.
Woodson eventually said he didn’t engage with the EPA.
Another email from the EPA showed that an EPA employee was interested in visiting Poe Hall, but the agency confirmed that visit never happened.
When asked why N.C. State has not let agencies like the Centers for Disease Control, the Environmental Protection Agency or independent investigators into Poe Hall to test the building and assist in learning what students and employees were exposed to, the chancellor said Poe Hall is university property.
"We’re the building owner. It’s critical for us to evaluate the building and understand what the nature of the building is," Woodson said.
How do NC State workers and alumni feel about the university’s handling of Poe Hall?
Many people have been critical of NCSU's response, characterizing it as slow and coldhearted.
In February, department of education faculty passed votes of no confidence against N.C. State’s Chancellor Randy Woodson and Vice Chancellor Provost Warwick Arden. The move was purely symbolic – but rare.
Referencing Woodson, the committee wrote, "Due to his mismanagement of the Poe Hall PCB contamination and cancer cluster issue, the faculty of the College of Education at North Carolina State University no longer have confidence in the leadership of Chancellor Woodson."
The results of the vote are as follows:
Chancellor Randy Woodson
- Votes of no confidence: 54%
- Votes of confidence: 25%
- Abstained votes: 22%
Executive Vice Chancellor and Provost Warwick Arden
- Votes of no confidence: 58%
- Votes of confidence: 17%
- Abstained votes: 25%
Dean of the College of Education Paola Sztajn
- Votes of no confidence: 49%
- Votes of confidence: 35%
- Abstained votes: 15%
What is the university doing to help those who spent time in Poe Hall?
PCBs can be detected through a blood test. Several N.C. State students have told WRAL 5 On Your Side that they’ve been unable to obtain such a test through the campus health system.
When asked if the university would consider partnering with a group that could test for PCBs, Woodson said that consideration would come after the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health completes its investigation into Poe Hall. The CDC told WRAL News that a typical investigation takes 6 to 12 months to complete.
"At this time, the university is not offering health testing or reimbursement for health testing related to Poe Hall because we're still in the evaluation phase of the building's environment," Woodson said.
Is NC State going to test other buildings on campus?
Despite calls from workers and students, N.C. State leadership tells WRAL News it has no plans to test other buildings for PCBs unless the building is about to undergo renovation and PCB presence is suspected. This is in accordance with EPA guidance, which suggests that building materials suspected to contain PCBs be directly tested for their presence and removed if renovations are planned.
What's going to happen to Poe Hall?
Poe Hall is expected to stay closed through at least the end of 2024.
Where can I find updates about Poe Hall?
WRAL News will continue to bring you the latest updates regarding the investigation into N.C. State's Poe Hall. You can find the latest coverage at WRAL.com.
For more information on Poe Hall from the university, go to ncsu.edu.
